Chuck HBill Conlin: Here's Your Answer On Jamie Moyer & Potential HOF Enshrinement
June 29th 2010 16:00
(From Bill Conlin's piece on Philly.com asking and making some cases for Moyer's potential election into the Hall of Fame)
Here's another argument one hears for keeping him out of the Hall of Fame. In the 24 seasons, he has won an average of just 11.125 games. You're going to get nailed using that argument. The great Nolan Ryan, who has 324 victories and more strikeouts and no-hitters than anybody has had or ever will have pitched 27 years. He finally hung them up at age 46.
And for those 27 seasons, Ryan won an average of exactly 12 games a year.
And for those 27 seasons, Ryan won an average of exactly 12 games a year.
Bill, you’re right, we might get “nailed” using the “Wins Average per season” argument.
Good call. Along with the “he was an ace one year with the Mariners” argument, you’re really grasping for straws here on this fine morning.
Nolan, as you state, had more no-hittters and strikeouts than anyone in baseball history. That bailed him out in terms of his less than sterling, 12 “wins per season average.” His 222 complete games and 61 shutouts, didn’t hurt either. How about his 3.19 ERA?
Moyer, on the other hand, is right there with Nolan when it comes to this “average wins per season” stat. He averages 11. What else is going for him, Bill? His 2393 K’s in comparison to Ryan’s 5714? His 10 shutouts in comparison to Ryan’s 61? (I know different game now with bullpen specialists, but keep in mind, Moyer pitched in the days when specialists were used much less as well). His 33 complete games in comparison to Ryan’s 222? Wait, how about his 4.22 ERA in comparison to Ryan’s 3.19 ERA? Ah, not that either.
Bill, nice use of the “average wins per season” stat. Wins are one of the most overrated stats that get thrown out there for starting pitchers. This holy grail “300 wins & in” is bullshit when used as a primary criteria, in this day and age. It is dependent on so many outside forces. Offensive support & a good bullpen in the age of specialization are two reasons that make it tougher. Do wins count toward this HOF criteria? Of course. It’s just that ERA/ Batting avg against/ Hits per IP as well as some other “new age” statistics available now, tell more of the story when judging a pitcher.
Ryan pitched for some pathetic offensive ball clubs with poor run support. Moyer has pitched on some brilliant offensive ball clubs over his career. That said, I’m still willing to somewhat overlook his less than dazzling “win” total over his career. It’s just that after I do that, nothing else comes even close to blowing me away, when it comes to Moyer.
Bottom line, if you’re pitching until you are 50 years old to get to 300 W's while averaging 11 wins per season over your career, with some very good offenses, as well as having no other “jump off the page” statistics to offset things, you don’t belong in the HOF. Not even close.
Chuck
~TCFB~
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Comment by 5280
Could either Ryan or Moyer do something like this?
Greatest Pitch Ever Thrown
DON'T THINK SO!
Comment by Chuck H
Two Cents From Beantown
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Comment by Joe Soriano
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